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ROBERT 4.25.2011 5:20PM
Subject: “Matthew 24, continued,”
sent by facebook due to e-mail failure
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Phil,
I just had an e-mail bounce back which I sent you three days ago. So I'll send it again here. I had asked 5 questions about Matthew 24, and then added a 0th one, and you wrote a lot back. Here is my reply:
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Phil,
I have pasted both your recent responses together below.
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[[Ed. note: Pasted responses will not be blogged; they are duplicates of PHIL 4.22.2011 1:02pm & 1:31pm, seen in Debate Page 2]]
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I must say, you routinely give responses that are about 10-20 times longer than they need to be. You could have answered my 6 questions in one paragraph worth of writing. Please "save yourself" from having to write so much in the future.
The matter of "watching because you don't know" is logically independent of free will & God's sovereignty. Just ask those millions of strong Calvinists who judge Arminianism every day and also claim that "no one knows the day." Therefore, since I plan to discuss free will and sovereignty later, I'm going to overlook all such matters until later and ask just one question on Matthew 24 before moving on to the next topic:
Whom is Jesus telling to "watch because you don't know" in Matthew 24:42? The saved or the unsaved?
Thank you, and I will pray for you and your family, and I welcome your prayers as well.
Robert
P.S. I plan to send more soon and get it out of the way so we can get onto sovereignty / free will issues.
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PHIL 4.26.2011 2:19PM
Re: “Matthew 24, continued”
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Hi Robert, I can respectively try and keep to the point as I do see the bible as all harmonizing together, everything does have to go together without contradictions.
You had said that to watch is to be independent of free will and election. But if we are to understand Watch is to be ready. Then we could replace the word watch as ready only to see if it will work.
Off course we cannot change a single word nor would we want to, as the Jehovah Wittnesees did in their New world translation of the bible which is a piece of junk.
When I look at Rev. 3:3 where God said to watch.
If therefore thou shalt not [be] "ready" , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
So God is telling us to watch, If we insert the meaning ready, God would be telling us to be ready, which no can save themselves, it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.
you see, ready in these kinds of verses would imply that man can make himself ready (saved) before the Lord returns.
In the parable of the 10 virigins, five were ready and five were foolish, So God predestined to save five and the others while they lived good moral lives and were virgin, never did become saved. Not because they were not good enough for we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, It is the faith of Christ in us that saves us not our own faith. OK see I am drifting off, but because it fits together. I often feel as though I have to explain why being saved is something only God can do and infact, He already saved the 5 virgins before the world was created.
SO looking back to Math 24:42 I see this with a two fold meaning. THat is God is telling all to watch in once sense that Judgment is comming, just as he previously said as in the days of Noah, Noah woud have watched ( saved by Gods grace) and the unsaved did not watch ( unsaved)
In verse 43 If the goodman of the house would have watched, if he would have known in what watch the thief would have come, He would have watched and not suffered his house to be broken into. SO here it would be the unsaved, God is saying is the goodman, He should have watched.
Infact if he had known which watch, Remeber that God himself refers to the flood of Noahs day, Noah knew and was saved ( ready) But God uses the language that they knew not until the flood came and took them all away.
Yet they would have seen the ark, they would have been warned by Noah, since he was a preacher of righteousness.
So even though they were told and saw the ark, they did not know until the flood came and took them all away.
This is how we see in the bible today, God has revealed May 21, as judgment day and yet the churches still say Jesus comes as a thief in the night, and we will not know the day.
Would the unsaved in Noahs day been told by Noah as God told Noah in 7 days I will destroy the world? I really believe Noah would have told them in 7 days God will flood the world, yet they did not know even though they would in all likely hood been told by Noah.
In verse 44 God said There fore be ye also ready (there God is using the word ready, But can we actually make our selves Saved? To be ready is to be saved. So many times in the bible God put a test for us to see if we will compare everything in the word of God together or not.
You see, if we are saved by grace, If God has chosen us and we have not chosen him, If we are elected and predestinated, then it is a test for us to live by one verse.
God commands us to believe and obey him in the 10 cammandments even though He knows there is none that seeketh after God Romans 3:10-11 God still tells us to obey even though we are born in sin and dead, we are no more spiritually alive than those in the graves if we are not saved.
When you talk to a morman it is like talking to a dead man, Only if God saves him will he believe the truth. The only difference is that he is physically alive but he is spiritually dead. So for us that is not something we can see in a man. It is not our business if one is saved or not, we take the Gospel to the whole world because God will save and have mercy on whom God will have mercy Romans 9:18.
I have tried to stay on topic, but everything is interwoven in the world of God, nothing stands alone. But we are to compare spiritual things with spsritual God said. Because the bible is a spiritual book it all hormonizes, we find salvation on nearly every page.
God bless, I am reading what you have written, and most will just say, I will talk to you on May 22nd.
Please consider what will happen if the churches are wrong.There is a video on my wall from Chris McCann called "Are you blind" I dont know if you would watch it as it talks about salvation form one who belileves in predestination, but it is really good and I really like his bible studies. May God Bless you this day, and Please pray for me and I will pray for you. I never discourage people from pray ing for me for wisdom . God Bless!
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ROBERT 4.27.2011 12:05AM
Re: “Matthew 24, continued”
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Phil,
OK, so you seem to answer that the "watch" audience is unsaved in Matthew 24:42-43.
I suppose I should ask if this means that the disciples were unsaved?
And what about the saved status of other NT "watch" audiences, like those of Acts 20:31; 1 Cor. 16:13; Col 4:2; 1 Thess. 5:6; 1 Peter 5:8; Rev. 3:2-3; 16:15. Are they all unsaved too?
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ROBERT 4.27.2011 12:0AM
Subject: “Noah’s knowledge”
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Phil,
Noah had a maximum of seven days to know the date of the coming judgment (7:1, 4, 10). (Actually he may have had less than a single day if verses 9-10 indicate that the seven days occurred after he got in the ark. ?)
Anyway, even if he did have seven whole days to warn the world, it was not his duty. His duty was clearly spelled out: Get in, take your family, take the animals. And Noah did what God commanded. God did not say to warn the people because God was going to destroy them; only Noah was found righteous in those days.
You ask, “Did those in Noah's day see the Ark being built?” Yes they did. And Noah did not know the date of the flood at that time. He wasn't told to “get in” until chapter 7, after the Ark was already built. He knew judgment was coming (6:13), but he did not yet know when.
You ask, “Did they see the animals go in?” Yes they did. “Noah knew” in Gen. 7:1, and he had a maximum of seven days to get the animals on board). That was his job. Warning the unrighteous world was not his job.
You ask, “Would Noah have warned them?” That is reading into things. God told him to bring his family, the animals, and food. He did not say to warn the people. The Ark wasn't made for them anyway. It is not safe to base such a controversial and confrontational doctrine on that kind of biased speculation.
But suppose God had, in fact, told Noah years earlier during the construction of the Ark about the date for the flood, and that he did warn them and try to get them onto the Ark. What valid conclusion could be drawn from that fact? It would only be one of many Bible story facts, and no one can dogmatically claim to know future events based on Bible stories unless he has God-given interpretative authority like he is some kind of apostle or prophet. But I assume you don't know any of those.
"Noah knew, so can we," just doesn't prove anything.
Robert
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"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." James 1:19
"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Corinthians 8:2
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:1-2
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ROBERT 4.27.2011 1:23AM
Re: “Matthew 24, continued”
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Phil,
Also, I have "considered what will happen if the churches [and Christians who did not believe Harold Camping] are wrong": They will prove to have been eternally unchosen by a God who used a teacher who got it so dreadfully wrong so many times before that he did not even deserve an audience http://www.refutecamping.com/topics/may_21_2011. And then he will put them out of their misery within five months.
Now, consider what happens if Family Radio is wrong. Family Radio is in great danger of putting their faith in potentially damnable heresies:
(1) They preach one man's message with complete trust, based on numerological story telling (more on that soon).
(2) They judge, judge, judge, concerning Arminians, churches, etc. in spite of Matthew 7:1-2's warning not to judge lest equal judgment befall those wrongfully judging.
(3) If May 23 comes, Mr. Camping's comforting new teaching on annihilation would be discredited with him.
(4) Certain Bible verses would get new life and vitality among his followers, like that verse about the gates of hell never prevailing against the church, or about doing communion (for whatever it's worth) until Christ comes. But would these verses benefit them? Or would they haunt them? Would it be too late for them to repent at that point, having fatally put all their eggs in the wrong basket?
I trust you can appreciate my motivation at least.
Robert
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PHIL 4.27.2011 10:14PM
Re: "Noah's knowlege"
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Hi Robert, that is precisely my point in the last few words from you. We have know from the time of Christ days that this was the last generation. We are in the generation of Jesus Christ. Adam was the first generation then Seth, then Enos and so on.
During the church age, we knew there would come a judgment day, we did not know just as Noah took aprx 120 years to build the ark, he knew judgment would come until God revealed to him in yet 7 days and I will flood the earth. Yes God spoke to Noah, and he and his family was saved.
Once God began to reveal the truth and break the seals in Revelation and unseal the books according to Daniel 12:4 which proves that there is information in the bible about the end times but God wont reveal it until his appoinsted time.
Noah was a preacher of righeousness, now you may say I am speculating that he would have warned the world. But Ezekial 33 tells us to warn the wicked of their ways ( even though God will destroy them) SO why would Noah keep to him self about the flood or 7 days. Infacst the animals going into the ark was a miracle they would have seen, but it proves God has to save a man and make him born again.
those who perished in the flood, could not get themsevles saved. THey could not believe on thier own free will, nor can a scientist with great knowledge figure it all out. God will have mercy on whom God will have mercy.
May God bless the reading of His word.
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PHIL 4.27.2011 10:29PM
Re: “Matthew 24, continued”
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No one here is judging another persons heart. I can say that in John 1:13 we are not saved by our free will. But Gods will. Do you read this verse to be mans will (mans free will or something else)God said we are predestinated. He has chosen us we have not chosen him.
I have not said anyone is not saved as an individual. I am saying Judgment begins with the house of God though, the bible does say that does it not?
You are not correct saying I am judging another mans heart. I have not but quote from the bible. You assume I am judging because you trust in free will salvation plan and I trust only in Gods will for salvation.
THis is just one area that is proven that Judgment is upon the church collectively. All of them, not just the church of Nazareen but the reformed churches as well.
God said a remenant will be saved of every nation. that is a small protion of the whole. I can only pray and continue to pray for Gods mercy upon me and my boys in these last few weeks.
I cannot convince you nor anyone. Rember you sent me a post card and I do not refuse to talk to anyone unless they come as a false gospel to me like Jehovah Wittnesess or Morman missionaries,then I am commanded by God not to give them a greeting.
I do not consider you as one of them, but I am to warn of pending judgment day because I truely believe it is in the bible, not because of Camping. I do not agree with Horold on everything he teaches, but I happen to agree with most of what he teaches from the bible as I also agree with a whole lot of Martin Luthers writtingsa and most of John Calvin also. I do not agree with John Wesley nor John Arminius.
I know we will not prove to each other anything as most religious people are very convinced they have truth no matter what. I have been blessed to know I have been wrong before and I do not take church history as fact. The churches should all be correcting themselves as Family Radio has over the years, but the denoinations do not change one doctrine from their history. I cannot except that kind of religion when the bible tells us to correct our doctrines II timothy 3:16. God bless.
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ROBERT 4.27.2011 11:01PM
Re: “Matthew 24, continued”
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Interesting. I appreciate you giving me more acceptance for dialogue than to Mormons and JW's. It means a lot to me. And it also means a lot that you "do not agree with Harold on everything he teaches." That actually liberates me from the need to get all this Camping criticism out of the way before discussing free will and God's sovereignty.
Well, almost. Actually I've been writing stuff ahead of time, and have already finished my response to the three tracts, and have almost finished a response to Matt. 28:1. So I'll send them, and then get started right away on the one you've been eager to discuss. I will get to John 1:13 for sure, as well as Romans 9 and much more.
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