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PHIL 4.20.2011 12:15AM
This facebook message is largely about God’s sovereignty,
as are most of his Phil's messages. It picks up from Debate Page 1.
From now on all messages are either by facebook message or by e-mail.
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Hello Robert,
I don't know if you knew I had sent you this request since you put it on a post card, but I did recieve a post card from you today.
I actually enjoy talking pro's and con's about the entire bible as it gets me into scripture and sometimes I get to dig deeper into comparable scriptures.
I also realize that God alone can open ones eyes where we might be wrong on certain doctrines.
I would say that free will salvation and Soverign grace is two completely different gospels based on one is works and the other is not.
Its kind of strange that both see the other as working for their salvation but they are completely different in understanding Gods words concerning how one becomes saved.
Theologians have debated over the fact that would God command a person to believe, obey his commandments if God knew he could not possibly obey.
I say yes. In fact he does all the time in the bible. But the others free-will say no. Man can respond and obey God on Gods terms.
I really think this is much more important than May 21 as God has bound the church in doctrines they cannot escape from.
It is very sad and yet, its no wonder that Judgment begins with the house of God. They are the ones who should be making sure they teach as correctly as possible. But they hold to church history, church doctrines and do not examine if they are correct in everything they teach. They go along with the denomination and what they teach. Today nearly every church could use a reformation again.
Today the christian churches are as bad as the Roman Catholic church from which they departed from for wanting to be more faithful to the Word of God.
Its very hard when everyone at church is so loving, caring and wonderful people ,the kind you would like as neighbors, but so it the Mormans and Jehovah Wittnessess , loving and kind yet they are far, far from the truth.
There is booklet called by the acconym TULIP by Duawne Spencer, or Spurgun? which very accurately gives both sides of predestination and free-will.
I do not completely agree with total depravity but I do when it comes to salvation. Man can do a good work, but cannot possibly do anything to aid in his salvaition. It is entire the work of God alone.
This is by far more important than any other doctrine in the bible, for it will determine if we have a works gospel or not, but knowing we do not have a works gospel will not in and of itself bring us salvation, for that is something God does and not mankind.
Hope you have a good and blessed week. Phil
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ROBERT 4.20.2011 10:18AM
Agenda of discussion topics
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Hi Phil.
Yes, in fact I did mail that postcard just before getting your request. Ever since then I have been compiling a large letter touching on many things you've mentioned, including: Matt. 24; free will; Romans 9; Noah's knowledge; and your previous paper about Hell; and I was about to address the three tracts; Matt. 28:1; and my own case about Matt. 19:9 and what it means concerning fornication and divorce.
It was going to be long but very abbreviated for reader convenience. I don't know how much of it you are interested in. Your message suggests you are primarily concerned with the free will and sovereignty issue. So in that way, you're not very different from common Calvinists who take their doctrines seriously. But I know that you are no common Calvinist.
So part of me wants to just focus on the free will issue just so you don't have to be burdened beyond your interest level. And yet I don't have quite the same level of personal motivation to rebuke and correct people's Calvinist doctrines simply because Calvinists have some scriptural legs to stand on. Both sides are heavily armed with scripture. We can discuss the matter as long as it is profitable.
But I personally find it more important to address issues about which people seem plainly wrong and in great need of correction. I am very sensitive to the fears and influences people suffer for lack of resources, and I feel a God-given compulsion to deliver people from errors that ruin souls - at least on earth, and perhaps beyond. And yes, these would be the Harold Camping issues.
So here is what I propose. First of all, e-mail is so much easier than both facebook messages and postal mail, as it saves login time and postage. Would it be alright if we communicate by e-mail? I'm at: … Secondly, I will send you brief cases concerning these other matters, and you may decide for yourself which of them are important enough to respond to. Then we can discuss the matters of free will / sovereignty more fully.
Enjoy the weather.
Robert
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PHIL 4.20.2011 10:33AM
Various topics
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Hello Robert, I would be fine with Emails, If you take the time to write anything, I certainly will read it. I have been wrong on other doctrines in the bible such as the doctrine of Hell being an eteranal lake of fire forever.
I now cant imagine why I did not see it before? I learn from most people I talk to. I have talked to two preachers this year and I learned a lot, most was how prideful they actually are and how they lack the authority of the bible in its entirety.
I do understand that we have a major difference and that does influence how we understand the word "watch". If watch was actually ready instead of to look and watch, It would not harmonize with the fact that God has to save us, make us born again, give us a resurected soul.
But if one trusts in his own free will to except Gods free gift of salvation, then one could easily think that to watch is ready since man has to respond to God before God can save him.
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PHIL 4.20.2011 10:52AM
More various topics
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So there are certain differences that we have, it actually helps each time I talk to be better prepared the next time. I find it so sad that so many think of salvation as so casual, just going to a crusade for example at a Billy Graham crusade and He has told countless people, that they can leave this theater knowing they have eternal life. No man can grant such a statement. There is absolutely nothing we can do to contribute to giving us a new, resurected, eteranl soul in which we never want to sin again. That is the mercy of God alone.
It is very mysterious, as He saves whom he will, we dont understand why he saves this one or myself? We know we dont deserve it nor earned it, nor said something that changed Gods will and heart.
Free will is the most damaging tool Satan uses and I used to be free will. I understand very clearly just how much they put their trust in the moment they went forward, prayed the sinners prayer or excepted Christ as their personal Savior. Their trust should be in what Christ did, He died, He rose from the dead, He has mercy on whom he wills, He is the one who predestinated those he came to save. ect
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I have no problem with talking or debating as most will call it. I should have take the time to be more clear in my letters as most were written in haste due to time limitations I have. I am a single Dad who has full custody of my boys as my Wife left us almost 2 years ago.
Life has been most difficult but as God chastized me through this divorce, it has brought me to my knees if you will, and I am so much more thankful for my groceries than I have ever been before in life. God has been good to make me so thankful when life had been at its worst for me.
Anyway, I do stay busy with laundry, cooking , cleaning ( which looks like I rarely do that , LOL ) along with sharing this message with as many in my community as possible and though out the world. If I dont work much today, I will be out in the streets with tracts or signs.
I know how the world is viewing this May 21, judgment day. I honestly believe most will not even search it out or they would be amazed how God has so precisely timed evey detail in life to the very age one is to the very age they would be when a child was born. Absolutely nothing is random in Gods creation, He is in total and complete control and He left nothing up to mankind to try and figure it out and work out his life so he would be saved. Salvation is just too important, and God knows that there would be none that seeketh Him if left alone, Romans 3:10. That is the true mercy of God, that a single person is spared from eternal death.
Mankind want to be responsible so he can count on his work and deeds, he does not want to put 100% of his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. He has to have some control so he will be confident, but there is a way that seemeth right unto man. We should never trust in our mind, free will nor anything. Just look at Adam and Eve and we see where it leads to, death.
Again this is the mercy of God as all 100% of men deserve death and hell. We cannot give God all the glory if mans free will enters the picture at any time. We have free will to wear this pair of shoes or that pair, but not when it comes to being born again. We are hopeless and destined to die, yet in Gods mercy and grace he saves a people for himself. God is Good.
Have a blessed day, I need to go. Phil
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ROBERT 4.20.2011 10:24PM
Discussing Harold Camping's
new teachings about hell
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Phil,
My primary goal is to challenge your confidence in Harold Camping and make sure that you are not, as some would say, some kind of mind-cult member. After all, you are spreading his judgment day message over northern CA. I wish to determine just how dependent your beliefs are on his. So let's begin by discussing one topic at a time. I envision discussing Hell first; then Matt. 24; Noah's knowledge; the three tracts about judgment day; Matt. 28:1; Matt. 19:9; and then finish with free will and Romans 9, since their discussion will probably be the main event with the most drama.
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Hell
And now to address that paper you sent which claimed that Hell is not a place of eternal torment. Well I'm not going to argue against it. I don't have the slightest desire for Hell to last forever, and would gladly give my very soul to annihilation if it would prevent eternal torment from touching anyone.
But yesterday I dug up an old Harold Camping tract called Does God Love You? Perhaps you already know about it. Over half the tract is devoted to teaching that Hell is real, terrible, and eternal. Here is a sample from page 2:
Q. Oh, come on now! Hell is not real, is it? Surely things are not that bad.
A. Indeed, Hell is very real, and things are that bad for the individual who does not know the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. The Bible makes many references to Hell, indicating it is both eternal and consists of perpetual suffering.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50
. . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. II Thessalonians 1:7-9
Harold Camping is capable of being wrong. Either he got it wrong then or he's got it wrong now. This is one strike against his credibility, and you are free to share how you deal with that. Either way I will move on to Matthew 24 in the next day or two.
Until then.
Robert
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. James 1:19
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Corinthians 8:2
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:1-2
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ROBERT 4.20.2011 10:32PM
On Matthew 24:42 and “watch”
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Phil,
In the second letter you said you would get proof to me about how "Watch is to look." Your typing and sentences seemed a little rushed and I could not understand the argument enough to respond. So it will help if you either provide that proof for me to consider and respond to, or else I can ask you a lot of clarifying questions about your own arguments.
Robert
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ROBERT 4.21.2011 6:37PM
Seeking clarity about “watch” in Matthew 24:42
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Phil,
I will now attempt to understand the arguments you have already sent concerning Matthew 24.
In the second letter you said that “to Watch is not to be ready. To be saved is to be ready as in the parable of the ten virgins, five were ready (saved) and five were not saved (ready). Watch is to look...” (all in para. 1). You also referred to the watchman of Ezekiel 33 (para. 2) and the goodman of Matt. 24:43 (para. 8). You also said, "We are to be ready every day of our lives" (para. 8). Later, in your last facebook message, you said, "If watch was actually ready instead of to look and watch, It would not harmonize with the fact that God has to save us, make us born again, give us a resurected soul."
I need to ask the following questions for clarity:
(1) Who is commanded to watch, the saved or the unsaved?
(2) What exactly happens to those who do not watch?
(3) Why do you think "watch" and "be ready" are so radically different? You said, "Watch is to look and I can prove it by the bible..." Perhaps you should. You should also prove that "be ready" means "be saved." But don't take forever on such proofs unless you can also demonstrate how relevant they are to Matt. 24 (that's question 5 below).
(4) Furthermore, why do you think it's so important for "watch" and "be ready" to be different in order to prevent a disharmony with God's monergistic/Calvinistic salvation of souls? What is the logic of this? Are you saying that "being ready" is caused by God's predestination and that it affects salvation, whereas "watching" is more a matter of choice and that it only affects things like rewards and/or other people's salvation?
(5) Why is this distinction worth bringing up in the first place? It can't be all about defending your belief about predestination. It must have been relevant to Matt. 24:42, which says to watch because you don't know. How does this problem get solved by such a distinction?
Can't wait for your answers.
Robert
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ROBERT 4.21.2011 6:51PM
Update on Camping's Tract
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Phil,
I just did another internet search for Does God Love You? and this time I found it. But it was changed, so that Hell got replaced by annihilation. For example, what used to say:
Q. Oh, come on now! Hell is not real, is it? Surely things are not that bad.
A. Indeed, Hell is very real, and things are that bad for the individual who does not know the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. The Bible makes many references to Hell, indicating it is both eternal and consists of perpetual suffering.
now says:
Q. Oh, come on now! Surely things are not that bad. God really does not mean that He will destroy man and burn up the earth, does He?
A. Indeed God does mean that it will be a horrible time to be alive when He makes this earth into a literal Hell for 5 months. Then God will destroy this earth, and everything that is in it, with fire.
Also, I like to read large fonts, so I think I'll start sending these in size 12 for your reading convenience. I accidentally sent the last one in size 14.
Robert
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PHIL 4.21.2011 10:08PM
On Hell and Harold Camping
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Hi Robert, yes the old tract and older books did speak of Hell as an eternal lake of fire, it wasn't until the information about judgment day became much clearer that we realized that the dead will be as dung upon the earth. Once that was read inlight of judgment day, it began to get us thinking more to see if this was correct, Hell being a eternal lake of fire where the those who God did not save would spend eternity for ever in torment.
There have been several things that had to be changed. In the begining I did not like the idea that Hitler or Sodom Husain would simply die and perish after they had done such horrible crimes against humanity, but the more I searched the bible and could not find a single verse that toughts they are alive in hell or eternal life in Hell fire, God began to reveal that it was my heart, my will that wanted them to be punished in fire for ever.
They indeed will be punished forever, but not alive. they will be shamed before God on judgmentday and they lost eteral life in glory with God, they will never see Jesus Christ in all his Glory and they will no longer exist after Oct. 21 when the world is destroyed by fire. Hell is terrible even if they do not know they are dead and punished.
What I like about Harold Camping is that he will search the bible for truth and does not rely on past theologians, nor books, nor the historic church. Where you worship you are bound to teach what the church teaches. One cannot stray from the church denomination even if one finds it not to be faithful. So one who does not agree that speaking in togues and teaches that we cannot except that as divinly comming from God in our day would eventually be kicked out of that church. On the other hand those who want dreams and tongues would be kicked out of the denominations that dont allow it. Every church has it s rules and they are all different. the only thing they have in common is that they teach Christ comes as a thief, that they all agree upon.
This might seem a bit trivial but I have to read the bible as I know nothing, Lord please teach me truth. I cannot rely on historic church views, that was what they did before Martin Luther rose up against the Roman Catholic church. today the Lutheran church is as apostate as the Catholics. So God raised up other denominations, that is what God did over the years until we get to the time when Judgment begins with the house of God. Now God allows all churches to teach with high places and agaisnt his will, in order to prepare them for judgmenday. I too would be going to a reformed church if it was not for God opening my eyes to the fact that they are also included in Judgment. I do have friends who say, yes all the other churches are under judgment but not our church. They want to hold on to religion instead of going right to the source of truth Gods word.
I know how bad this might sound, ( self righeous, our only group with open eyes) but the fact is only the bible is absolutley true and trust worthy. THe bible speaks so clearly that deception will sweep the world over. God said just when they say peace and safety comes sudden destruction upon them. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. That is the first will not be saved even though they think they are first,and the last are being saved now outside the churches.
It really is the worst thing to happen on earth since its creation, this is the tribulation of those days, Woe to them that nurse babes in those days, they go to the temple where the Holy Spirit is not there. THat is the woe to them.
Well I dont know you understand that we should l change our minds from church doctrines if it does not harmonize with the bible. That is what we should do. If your preacher has not changed his mind in 50 years, I think he should read the bible again and pray for II Timothy 3:16 ALL scripture is given by insiration of God, and is profitable for doctrines, for reproof, for correction , for instrucion in righteousness.
So we should be making corrections, reproofing , yet the denominaitons will not allow for correction. They hold they know the truth and stick to what was taught by men years past, not going back to the diciples but 100 years, 400 years and yet they cannot change what is taught just 10 years ago. THey are bound.
I had not been here for quite some time I have 8054 emails, but a lot of it is from every post on facebook i think. Glad you left me a note. Phil
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PHIL 4.22.2011 1:02PM
On “watch” and predestination
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In regards to the word watch, We have to compare everything God said about watch to understand watch. For instance God said in Rev. 3 REMEMBER THEREFORE HOW THOUS HAS RECIEVED AND HEARD, AND HOLD FAST AND REPENT. IF THEREFOE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, AND THOUS SHALT NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE.
Because God tells us in John 10:10 that a thief comes not but to steal, kill and destroy. We know what a thief is. We know that Christ comes as a thief for those who are not saved and not watching.
Watch cannot be ready for if we say to watch is to be ready, God commands us to watch and we cannot make ones self ready, that is to be born again. Only God can save a man and make him ready.
We also learn in I Thes 5:4 But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief. This not not that they are saved and ready alone, but they are watching, they are not sleeping as others. I must never forget that man is spiritually dead, they cannot see, they are the blind leading the blind, they are the dead buring the dead. Only God can make one to see, just as Jesus opened the eyes of the blind man, so we too are spriritually blind until God opens our eyes. We should always take into consideration the fact that Romans 9 declares he shapes one vessel to honor and one to dishonr, and God hardened Pharoahs heart not to let the people go. That is God used Pharoah to show mans free will , shall never respond to God in a saving faith, saving belief in Him, He must intervine or man will die in his sin.
Once we understand that God is the author and finishesr of our faith. I thes 1:3 Remebering with out ceasing your work of faith and labor of love. ( here God reveals our faith is a work we do) therefore if he have faith in Christ the Lord, it harmonizes with Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law ( Work of faith I thes 1:3) but by the faith of Jesus Christ. This is a test God puts forth for the church in our day. Do we hold to our own faith in repenting or do we hold to the faith in Jesus Christ. In order to make the test even harder, most transaltions had wrongly put " Faith in Christ" but if you look at the greek you will see it is not " in " But is "of" Christ. In the same way the Watchtower made them the new world translation and claim it is the most faithful translation where they make Jesus a little god and a creation, So the translaters in the NIV and other newer bibles make it "in" because they want mans free will to rule over Gods will.
I can see why you would think that watch is to be ready since after all God said in 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Watch does seem as though it could be look or ready, but if we make watch to be ready,then it is God telling us to do something so we are ready. We cannot convince anyone to be ready. To be saved. One plants, one waters but God gives the increase. Salvation is always the work of God and never the work of man. Its very much as those who say in John 3:16 that whosoever believeth in Christ, but they lack the rest of the bible to know that there is none that seeketh after God Romans 3:10. The whosoever are only Gods elect who were saved from before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4
The churches do not want to deal with predestination because it robs them of their assurance which they want to claim they are saved the moment they except Christ as their Savior or the sinners prayer if you will. This robs God of his Glory in saving us and puts salvation up to man if he will be saved or not. But if God has mercy on whom God will have mercy Romans 9 then Salvation is of God and we do not try and add works ( believing or our work of faith in him ) to our salvation.
The parable of the ten virigins is a good exaple of God who saves us and makes us ready
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PHIL 4.22.2011 1:31PM
More on “watch”
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I really wanted to finish on this word Watch, as I would like to examine it with everthing else the bible says, such as in Ezekiel 33 where God tells us to warn the world lest the Sword come upon them, many times God gives us clues that only very near the end will we know of His comming, Just as the parable of the 10 virgins knew he was comming soon, the the call was finally given " Go out to meet him" then the other five realized they had no oil.
The oil is the Holy Spirit, it is Jesus Christ who provides the light since He is the light of the world. So they go to those who buy and sell to get oil but Christ returns and they were not ready. They were not watching as they should have been. The world is going to know on May 20th near evening that judgment day has begun and On May 21 as the day light sets in all the world, in each time zone it is most likely that is when the raputre occurs and the great earthquake in Rev where the dead will rise, then the churches will know, WOW it really is Judgment day on May 21, yet they still teach Christ comes as a thief, even though now they are knowing they were wrong, yet they will still hold to their religion isntead of the word of God. Judgment begins with the house of God, Robert we really want to search this out and pray to God for wisdom , what does that really mean in the last days of earth. May God bless you and I as we continue to search the bible.
I will not say I know truth and I am always willing to search this out. You have brought up some good points about watch and ready, however, I could make the case for free will but I would have to ingnore the rest of what God said about eternal life and salvaiton. For instance , Christ stands at the door and knocks, He who hears his voice and opens the door, I willl sup with him.
Now we can read that and make the case we have to open the door right, Jesus knocks at each ones door but only those who open the door will he come into.
The Key verse here is not us opening the door, but is the fact that God said, " He who hears my voice" no man can hear unless God opens his spiritual ears to hear. THis is why God has said many times, To he that hath ears to hear, let him hear. God is the one who can give us ears to hear, God alone can give us eyes to see. It is always the work of God that saves us, gives us hearing , gives us eyes to see. It is no wonder why we will say, "To God be the Glory for the great thins He has done", never do we want to say, I except Christ therefore I am saved, I see, I hear, It is always what Christ has done, that I see, what Christ has done that I believe. I never want mans free will to enter into salvation. I john 1:13 declares it is not the will of man, but of God. Amen and God bless you brother in the Lord.
I welcome you to pray for me and my boys, and I will pray for you as well. I do not have worldy pride that says, I know I am saved by anything I have done. Today my thoughts are worthy of repenting before Almighty God. I know I do not deserve eteranl life. Knowing I am a sinner will not save me either, so We are trying to be as the city of Ninevah, comming to God very humbly not in christian pride, but as a publican who needs a Savior and we will continue to pray for Gods mercy until that day. I do have faith and hope of being saved, but there has been some sin problems in my life, ( divorce and dept ) that has been a torment for me. It doesn't hurt to cry for mercy if one is already saved. God knows our hearts better than we know it. God Bless! Phil
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ROBERT 4.22.2011 10:32AM
An added question for clarity
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Phil,
I kinda like size 14 font now, it's so easy to read! I think I'll send everything in it.
But more importantly I have another clarifying question. Let's call it question Zero:
(0) What exactly does it mean to "watch" or "look" in the first place?
If you could answer this along with the other 5, that would be glorious. I'll attach the previous e-mail, Matthew 24 below, in case it helps.
Robert
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That “previous e-mail,” with questions 1-5,
can be seen above in ROBERT 4.21.2011 6:37PM.
Also, I sent another message that day that was returned undelivered. Apparently his e-mail had just stopped working. So I resent it at 4.25.2011 5:20PM (below) by facebook, as I did with all remaining correspondence as well. This eliminates future use of fonts, italics, boldface, and underlining.
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Discussion continues on
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